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Go Back   The Unreal Admins Page > Forums > Hosted Forums > UTAN > Bugs

 
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  #1  
Unread 14th January, 2005, 06:56 PM
LittleHorn's Avatar
LittleHorn LittleHorn is offline
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Default the biggest bug...

so... whats going to happen when you ban a load of people by GUID and they just decide to take their game back or sell it for a 2nd hand box and then someone else gets that game with a banned GUID?

i think ips are more reliable for banning people than GUIDs as it is the person who is banned not the copy of the game (am i getting this wrong)...

hmm its very controversial and i just dont understand why, when we have so much anti cheat work going on, do we need to ban people on such a huge scale? personally i think its a bad idea, can someone explain it to me, or is it really just a bad idea?
  #2  
Unread 14th January, 2005, 07:17 PM
b][rch.Co30's Avatar
b][rch.Co30 b][rch.Co30 is offline
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Unfortunatley IP banning isn't very practical. With dial up users getting a new IP address on every connection and DSL and cable users able to reset their modems to receive a new IP, it makes it almost pointless to ban by IP. You'd have to ban an entire range and that hurts other valid users.

The special situation you refer to is unfortunate but will occur. These people can still play on any servers not running UTAN or on any server running UTAN but not accepting Global Bans.

I think the reasoning behind the UTAN Global Bans is good, Admin's choosing to use UTAN do so to just keep the lamers off the servers to begin with. Thus reducing each admins work in detecting cheaters and enforcing bans.

Remember - the admins run UTAN as a ban management system. It's their machine or under their control. They pay for it and the bandwidth. They can do what they like to control access to who ever they choose. It's not a software purchasers "rights" to play on every server out there. Buying second hand is buyer beware.

My two cents.

Last edited by b][rch.Co30 : 15th January, 2005 at 04:08 PM. Reason: Removed section ;-)
  #3  
Unread 14th January, 2005, 07:20 PM
ShiningSquirrel ShiningSquirrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleHorn
so... whats going to happen when you ban a load of people by GUID and they just decide to take their game back or sell it for a 2nd hand box and then someone else gets that game with a banned GUID?

i think ips are more reliable for banning people than GUIDs as it is the person who is banned not the copy of the game (am i getting this wrong)...

hmm its very controversial and i just dont understand why, when we have so much anti cheat work going on, do we need to ban people on such a huge scale? personally i think its a bad idea, can someone explain it to me, or is it really just a bad idea?

GUID banning is actually more effective then IP in some cases.
If my IP was banned, I could have a new one in less then ten minutes.

Taking a game back might work once, or maybe twice, if you cliaimed it was defective, but no retailer is going to let you keep returning an opened game for an exchange time and time again.

Selling it is possible, and by looking at eBay very likely, but that is why you should NEVER purchase a second hand game that requires a unique key to play online. It's a case of buyer beware.

Damn! b][rch.Co30 beat me to it.

Last edited by ShiningSquirrel : 14th January, 2005 at 07:23 PM. Reason: b][rch.Co30 beat me to it.
  #4  
Unread 15th January, 2005, 03:44 AM
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Default

We have methods in place to ensure this does not happen.
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  #5  
Unread 15th January, 2005, 04:46 AM
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Hmm, I know from experience that changing ISPs is tedious and some young people won't be able to do that since the connection doesn't belong to them. Also, it's possible to trace an IP to see in what geographic region they're being used.
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  #6  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 01:48 PM
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who says they have to buy the game from the same shop. perhaps take it back and buy it somewhere else. either way it will happen. its ironic how they are not allowed the right to play on servers when they bot, but they never had any right to play on any servers in the first place... i think that really needs thinking about. you purchasing a multiplayer capable game for the internet means you have a right to play that game online.

i think global banning is simply quite an arrogant, if not quite a lazy approach to administrating your servers. i once again ask:

why ban when there are anti cheats that work?
why have anticheats if your going to ban anyway?
and why accept global bans when you can ban people from your server in your own right?

if you want to ban guids, thats fine, per server. but global guid banning is ignorant. granted a player knows he is not supposed to cheat and will cheat on other servers if banned from one. however this wont go on forever, it shocks a person to be banned and they are less likely to cheat. either way even if that player is a persistent cheater, what does it matter if each server admin can just ban him/her in his or her own right

also i see no point in such cheat protection, whatsoever, if people are to ban anyone who cheats anyway... the way this is going it seems more logical to have all UTAN servers free of cheat protection, free of downloading all the compressed files and just global ban anyone who tries to cheat...

its like banning a child from every store in the world that sells sweets, just because he or she wanted to steal a few sweets in one shop.... but not only that, its like banning every relative of that person. (anyone who has the same genes - or GUIDs...)
  #7  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleHorn
why ban when there are anti cheats that work?
because the players who cheated should not come back - whether they cheat again or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleHorn
why have anticheats if your going to ban anyway?
You can't check the server 24/7 and often anti-cheat tools are the only way to detect cheats in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleHorn
and why accept global bans when you can ban people from your server in your own right?
As a server admin you don't have to accept the global UTAN bans.

Server admins installing UTAN usually do it because they want to have the global bans.
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  #8  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 02:45 PM
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LittleHorn LittleHorn is offline
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your missing the point... for example the question

why ban when there are anti cheats that work?


means there is no need to ban because the anti cheats should prevent the cheats, therefore people cannot cheat, therefore there is no need to ban. if someone attempts to cheat and the anti cheat stops them, thats the job of the anti cheat. otherwise you might aswell just use cheat detection units where anyone who even attempts to cheat is automatically banned...

either way never mind... i cba to continue with this... if there was a way to close this topic i would, so can an admin do this for me because otherwise it will just go on...
  #9  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 03:37 PM
BLTicklemonster BLTicklemonster is offline
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Life sentence for Dahmer, or the chair?

Chair, buddy, chair...
  #10  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 04:00 PM
grep grep is offline
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"you purchasing a multiplayer capable game for the internet means you have a right to play that game online."

True...but an admin also has a right: to deny you access to his server. And that's what's happening here.

Furthermore:
why ban when there are anti cheats that work?
Cause there's no such thing a 100% working anti-cheat. Banning is just a way of making sure to keep out repeat offenders instead of waiting for them to find out a way of passing the anti-cheat.

why have anticheats if your going to ban anyway?
Cause how else would you catch them at first

and why accept global bans when you can ban people from your server in your own right?
End result would be the same. The cheater can't play. Only one loosing in that scenario are the admins who have to put more time into all their own administrations. It's just easier this way.
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Last edited by grep : 16th January, 2005 at 04:02 PM.
  #11  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 04:04 PM
Sardukar Sardukar is offline
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Ex-cheater or not, I wouldn't want "those kind" of people (have cheated before) making use of any services/work/effort people have put into something.

In essence: "Yeah I cheated 6 months ago but i'm clean now... please unban me, I want to make use of this freebie because there isn't another one like it."

Anti-cheats are used to:
- Keep the servers clean
- Find out who is cheating
so that;
- People can enjoy fair games
- You exclude the people who see nothing wrong in spoiling the once-fair game for others because they have one huge flaw in their personality

I also support the idea of global banning, I wish something like UTAN was developed by Epic Games and integrated into every UT2004 Server Setup so the cheaters can be punished, and to repeat my point above; no one wants to share a game with people who see nothing wrong in messing up games for others.

That is how I see it.
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Last edited by Sardukar : 16th January, 2005 at 04:09 PM.
  #12  
Unread 16th January, 2005, 05:04 PM
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Agreed.

I dont want to play with people who would cheat if they were able to.

As for this:

Quote:
you purchasing a multiplayer capable game for the internet means you have a right to play that game online.
The lamers can set up their own servers were they can lame around all they want. This "right" to play online would only exist if the creators of the game provided the servers.
  #13  
Unread 17th January, 2005, 07:11 AM
Duesy Duesy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan
Agreed.
I dont want to play with people who would cheat if they were able to.
As for this:

The lamers can set up their own servers were they can lame around all they want. This "right" to play online would only exist if the creators of the game provided the servers.
I dont' understand why people cheat in the first place.. but the harder it is for a person to get back to the server the better it is.
If they can return the game and get another, get caught again.. then they are going to have to go to a lot of trouble to keep playing that game as they are going to be banned again. Go back to the store return and rebuy game again.. eventually they'll get sick of it.
If it gets around that its nearly impossible to cheat and stay in a game, then maybe they'll move on and do something else (like rob a bank or something j/k)

I wish ut99 had global bans.. I have an armslength list of botters. .........
  #14  
Unread 1st October, 2005, 10:29 PM
[ISS]BlackIce [ISS]BlackIce is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardukar
- You exclude the people who see nothing wrong in spoiling the once-fair game for others because they have one huge flaw in their personality

That is how I see it.

Hmm how should I put this your out look on cheaters is somewhat hmm rude cheating is not a personality flaw. I mean really if your going to look at it this way then I will continue to say you are the one who has a personality flaw by thinking your better than others because you don't cheat therefore you personality is not flawed.
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  #15  
Unread 2nd October, 2005, 01:45 AM
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i understand the banning cause of cheating and preventing cheats and all of this
but the thing that i could never understand and kinda puts me off a bit is the warez
key bans i see every so often. Yea maybe there are some keys floating around
warez sites and are being used online but this does not imply they are being used
by cheaters. It is shitty that people would get a key from a serial site and use it online
but who are you to judge a person for that if they are not cheating. warez key bans i
think crosses the line a bit. excpecially since there is a valid owner of that key some
where on the planet and chances are hes not cheating on it. its like some how anti
cheat morphed into anti piraters or something. If the reasoning is that if thier the
type of person to play with a warez key then they must be a cheater then ok i
get your reasoning i find it far fetched but ok. but who are you to judge them on
warez alone

i bout two copies of this game once when it came out then the
editors choise edition incase anyone thinks im a ranting pirate
 


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