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  #1  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:43 AM
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Default Constructive Comments!

Constructive Comments

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con┬Ěstruc┬Ětive (kn-strktv) adj.

1. Serving to improve or advance; helpful: constructive criticism.
2. Of or relating to construction; structural.
3. Law. Based on an interpretation; not directly expressed.
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  #2  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:56 AM
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you are compltely right. but also mind that some of those people are really frustrated and there is nowhere else to discuss these matters.
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  #3  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:01 AM
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url-sephiroth url-sephiroth is offline
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Ok constructive... hummm ok.

well as we all know unreal at the current moment in time has a issue with a few members of the cheating community and other problems, Epic are not very supportive towards the community and is reluctant to help the paying customers that PURCHED the game and we feel like its about time they pulled there finger out!,

I think its time we addressed these issues as community members stating that we are unhappy with the current situation and that we would like more of a helping hand from Epic them self’s and for them to address the problems instead of shying away from them.

Possible whys of talking as a strong team I feel is for all of the unrealadmin members to sigh a Petition online and then to send it to epic and hopefully they will reply and be more supportive …if not fuck um!!!

*also i could make up a forum to flame epic if you want*
  #4  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:09 AM
Shambler Shambler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by url-sephiroth
*also i could make up a forum to flame epic if you want*
The title says constructive

As for the rest of the discussion, I believe what I said in another topic applies here too:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shambler
That's not the right way to go about getting attention
...
As for the current need for help, I said earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shambler
Epic aren't sitting idle, I don't believe it's yet appropriate to detail what is being done
  #5  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:16 AM
AndyMc-IceMan AndyMc-IceMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_IMMortal
you are compltely right. but also mind that some of those people are really frustrated and there is nowhere else to discuss these matters.
I'd agree with that.

Last edited by AndyMc-IceMan : 8th September, 2006 at 02:31 AM.
  #6  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shambler
The title says constructive
As for the rest of the discussion, I believe what I said in another topic applies here too:
so you say ; we wait till UT2k7 comes out. i REALLY would like to be constructive , but we can't sit down and wait , or leave playing while lots of people cheat , and servers getting hijacked/hacked.
don't get it wrong , but we need to hear from Epic, that they are not sitting idle, and they have something both for 2k7 and 2k4 .
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  #7  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:36 AM
AndyMc-IceMan AndyMc-IceMan is offline
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TBH could you not hire a server and admin it yourself? I know I can see all cheating and it sounds like you can. Then you don't need to wait or any anti cheat software and just playing online and inviting non cheaters to a non cheater server will get people in. I also don't think waiting for the next UT will sort anything.

As I said in a topic before, maybe auto updating anti-cheat. It wouldnt be hard to have a server check for a new version of a file on some webspace(ftp). No need for loads of bandwidth to accomedate loads of servers connecting, just some webspace which any anti cheat updates are thrown to and I think EPIC could at least supply this. Or some ISP's free webspace or maybe one of the FREE UZ redirects. Just a suggestion.
But I think a live update is whats needed to catch them out.

Also I just realised this thread is continued from another but I think what I said is still relating to both topics.
Also good on ya Azura, games are for fun and not life and yes leave the guys who live it to caryr on living it. You won't look back In a years time.

Last edited by AndyMc-IceMan : 8th September, 2006 at 02:44 AM.
  #8  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
Constructive Comments

Your point is?
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  #9  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limited
Constructive Comments
Ok. Here's a summary of the situation :

* Some popular servers are being crashed to make way for fake "mouse trap" servers.
* People are having their cd key hashes getting stolen.
* These cd key hashes are being used in such a way that they're getting the genuine owner of the key banned on UTAN.
* Epic are apparently refusing to supply replacement cd keys on grounds that UTAN is "third party" and this despite some sort of semi-official approval of the system.
* Epic haven't really made any official statement about what's happening so most people are clueless. They also seem to refuse to acknowledge there's a problem and have systematically closed/deleted threads discussing the issue.
* This is creating paranoia, causing players to avoid unknown servers and generating much less activity overall.
* This in turn is causing admins to shut down some of their servers due to lack of visits.
* The UT2004 playerbase on the whole is suffering as people turn away because having to splash out some more money for a game through no fault of your own is silly.

So, here's the immediate solutions :

* Somehow, the cd key hash stealing activities need to be stopped.
Problems :
- Orange.fr/France Telecom refuse to do anything on grounds that they can't reveal the identity of whoever is doing this (why would we need to ?!) and state that they will only take action upon request of local authorities. This is despite their own conditions.
- Perhaps there is some weird french law constituting an obstacle. However, I personally don't see the difference between this and a spam problem.
- The french judicial police states that a collective complaint needs to be introduced using a local representative. So, someone on french soil actually has to volunteer to represent a collective before a complaint can even be made.
- Any legal proceedings could take months or longer to complete. And there's guarantee they will go anywhere seeing the respective positions of Epic and the UTAN team. A judge might just state that the problem lies with UTAN and it is up to them to fix it, or that Epic need to issue new cd keys.
- There is total lack of support for a collective action anyway. It would seem that the people that have their cd keys abused have gone to get a new copy moved on. Same goes for those admins that have had their servers crashed/faked.

* Players need to be informed of the possibility that their key might be abused under certain conditions
Problems :
- Epic still refuses to acknowledge the problem, hasn't made an official statement and, therefore, a majority of the playerbase doesn't have a clue what's going on.
- Fan sites haven't posted any news of this and the only information that can be had is on forums outside of the official Epic ones.

* UTAN needs to be modified in such a way that a genuine owner of a cd key isn't penalized. This could be done by using, say, hostnames or geographic zones.
Problems :
- Making a new system like this would take time and the people behind the project are doing this on a voluntary basis with little time on their hands.
- Are any possible solutions feasible or practical ?

* UTAN being a "third party" is creating a grey area which is being used by Epic as grounds for refusing replacement cd keys. It may also be used in a court of law as grounds for dismissal.
Problems :
- Epic can choose to officially endorse UTAN or not. They didn't develop the system.

(To be continued from the workplace :p)
  #10  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 09:40 AM
ShiningSquirrel ShiningSquirrel is offline
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Azura,
VERY well written and to the point.
This is exectly what many have been trying to get across to the community while Epic has been activly blocking any discussion on the subject.
Less then a year ago, I had 6 servers running with 2 of them full nearly all the time.
Now I am down to 2, which are nearly empty, and will probobly be taking another down as there is just no reason to keep them running when there are no players using them.
Also, I had to stop accepting any UTAN bans other then my own as I could not in good faith block players who, in my opinion, where banned unfairly due to having thier CD/GUID stolen. This greatly diminished the usefulness of UTAN as now even the confirmed cheaters are allowed to play.
A problem I see with the current situation, is it seems like they would rather ban 100 innocent players if it caught 1 single real cheater, while it should be the other way around. It is not acceptable to ban an innocent player because he "might" be cheating or his key "might" be used again.
I said it in another forum and I will say it here, Epic and UTAN may not want to, but they are BOTH working WITH the cheaters/key stealers and are not helping matters in the least, only causing more problems for the legitimate players. BFH wanted to show that the system is flawed, and sorry to say, he has done an execllent job of proving his point. At this point in time, the cheaters have won a clear victory over both UTAN and Epic.
  #11  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
UTAN needs to be modified in such a way that a genuine owner of a cd key isn't penalized. This could be done by using, say, hostnames or geographic zones.
Imo that's not possible.
I'm sitting in Vienna right now, my current IP is 158.226.157.1 (admins, I'm using a proxy), I can get nearly any IP out of 158.226.0.0
If you lookup this IP-range it says Switzerland
I'm also able to change my hostname to nearly everything I want (except toplevel domain, which would be siemens.net)

That's only an example, I've seen many ranges which aren't correct recorded and changing the hostname is very easy for everyone (simple reconnect if you have a dynamic IP).

Otherwise:
What will happen if the owner switches to another isp?
How are you able to proof that he/she is the owner of the CD-Key?


An other option would be a password or a keyfile, but everything you have to send to the server is insecure and can be spoofed/recorded.

Maybe it's possible to check it without sending special data to the gameserver, but to utan.
Utan then tells the gameserver you're trying to connect to if you're allowed or not.
Imo for this, utan has to be build up completly new from scratch.
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  #12  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 11:27 AM
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Nice said azura!
Hope 2007 will be better sorted, better protected, much more support from epic themself...
  #13  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azura
* UTAN needs to be modified in such a way that a genuine owner of a cd key isn't penalized. This could be done by using, say, hostnames or geographic zones.
Problems :
- Making a new system like this would take time and the people behind the project are doing this on a voluntary basis with little time on their hands.
- Are any possible solutions feasible or practical ?
We're already working on a GUID lock/registration system. The current plan is that players will be able to register their GUID through UTAN to basically make it globally UTAN-banned except that they themselves can still use it. GUIDs will be tied to IP ranges and/or hostmasks. (even several, if neccessary) Registrations need to be validated by connecting to an (authorized) UTAN server and will have to be authorized by a UTAN admin. Also, others will be able to file a complaint against any GUID registration, just like they can post ban appeals at the moment. For some ISPs like wanadoo.fr UTAN will only allow registered GUIDs.
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  #14  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 12:33 PM
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* Epic should really do something about this problem as some sort of flaw is being exploited in the game itself. In fact, they owe it to end users since the game is purchased.
Problems :
- Epic is busy promoting UT2007. Jeff has just come back from Germany apparently.
- Epic doesn't seem inclined to discuss the problem on their official forums or by any medium.
- Fixing the problem might required some big changes to code. Either that or Epic did a big booboo when designing the game. It might be even impossible to find a solution, in which case online gaming using some sort of authentication is in trouble.
- The cd key hash is somehow being used in combination with a client. How ?

* Players won't be confident about going on unknown servers unless they know it's safe or have a way of telling a server is fake.
Problems :
- You can't tell if a server is fake for certain unless you're careful and observant.
- There's no way to flag a server as being safe.
  #15  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azura
* Players won't be confident about going on unknown servers unless they know it's safe or have a way of telling a server is fake.
Problems :
- You can't tell if a server is fake for certain unless you're careful and observant.
- There's no way to flag a server as being safe.
How about a modified server browser that gives comments or blocks servers based on a central server register? Well known servers like Titan etc could register their name and IP, and the server browser would then refuse to connect to the server if they dont match.

It would of course only work with clients that had this installed.

The browser could also keep a record and provide information about how long a server has been running on its current IP.

Last edited by PizzaMan : 8th September, 2006 at 01:19 PM.
  #16  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormbo
We're already working on a GUID lock/registration system. .....
THUMBS UP !
the integrity of system can be discussed. im not up to it. but this is the difference between UTAN and Epic. when we talk about Epic's work on anticheat on their forums we get banned. when we ask for another system of UTAN in here, the answer comes straight away .
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  #17  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:30 PM
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Once again tho wormbo its YOU who is sorting out epics problems i want to see them take charge them selfs and fix it NOT leave it down to the community again...

a other thing is that not all players visit the UTAN website nor do they no about the problems that Azura has pointed out epic need to do something and MAKE IT PUBLIC so that players know about the problems

*cheers tho*
  #18  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PizzaMan
How about a modified server browser that gives comments or blocks servers based on a central server register? Well known servers like Titan etc could register their name and IP, and the server browser would then refuse to connect to the server if they dont match.

It would of course only work with clients that had this installed.

The browser could also keep a record and provide information about how long a server has been running on its current IP.
there were some sort of fuss on XMP master server had been reverse-engineered. what about using a UTAN based master server, with certain features you flag servers being safe and registered servers can be browsable only?
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Last edited by The_IMMortal : 8th September, 2006 at 01:35 PM.
  #19  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 02:36 PM
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ARsEnAl51 ARsEnAl51 is offline
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While I like the idea of registering your GUID, I find the idea of "locking" some ISPs simply disgusting. Players shouldn't have to go through the hassle of registering their GUID because they use the same ISPs as people who can fake it (how many players actually now their IP range / hostmask anyway?). Don't get me wrong, I myself have wanadoo.fr/orange.fr as my ISP and will probably do it if this feature stays in place. I'm simply saying that, this system, the way it is planned currently, looks unfair. Imho, you should either make registration necessary for everybody or for nobody.

Also, you will need to find ways (if any) to prevent abuses :
- a GUID could be registered so it works only when used by one or more proxies... accross the world that is... yay for CD-Key sharing =]
- a player who wants to sell his copy of the game could (intentionally or not) leave the GUID registered to his IP range/hostmask. This leads to the following questions : Will there be a way to unregister a GUID? Will players be able to do it or only UTAN admins?
- somebody could also register all the GUIDs from 00000000000000000000000000000000 to FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF to take control of all the valid GUIDs or simply use WebAdmin to get valid ones then register them if they aren't already registered. Yeah, I know... it is kinda extreme... but heh.

Edit: Is the new version of UTAN planned for UT2004/UT2007/both?

Last edited by ARsEnAl51 : 8th September, 2006 at 02:39 PM.
  #20  
Unread 8th September, 2006, 03:37 PM
ShiningSquirrel ShiningSquirrel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wormbo
We're already working on a GUID lock/registration system. The current plan is that players will be able to register their GUID through UTAN to basically make it globally UTAN-banned except that they themselves can still use it. GUIDs will be tied to IP ranges and/or hostmasks. (even several, if neccessary) Registrations need to be validated by connecting to an (authorized) UTAN server and will have to be authorized by a UTAN admin. Also, others will be able to file a complaint against any GUID registration, just like they can post ban appeals at the moment. For some ISPs like wanadoo.fr UTAN will only allow registered GUIDs.
This sounds like an excellent solution.
 


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